Sandy Rosenthal
Yesterday, Bohrer wrote that Southern University in New Orleans was “virtually wiped out by Hurricane Katrina nearly four years ago.”
To say Katrina wiped out Southern U is like saying traffic wiped out the Minneapolis bridge.
Both Katrina and the traffic precipitated structural failures and exposed blatant civil engineering incompetence.
I am not alone in my condemnation of using “Katrina” as shorthand for federal levee failures. John McQuaid, noted author and journalist specializing in science, environment, and various forms of government dysfunction agrees with me.
I am still amazed at the arrogance people exhibit when nature is involved. In 1998 my environmental geology class did a case study on New Orleans that examined how a Katrina-type event would eventually happen. Most of the city is more than 5 meters below sea level. It was inevitable, and not any different than living on the flanks of an active volcano. Yes the levees did fail, but we should be thankful it was due to a Cat 3 storm and not a Cat 5. They can re-build the levees and make them bigger and stronger, but regardless of what humans do another large storm will eventually hit New Orleans and breach or overtop the levees. Its a city by the sea that is below sea level.
Ron you’ve got it right man. The city is below level and WITHOUT the hurricane there wouldn’t have been a flood. They should have just left the levee down and left everyone to move to higher ground!
Ron: Let’s see…you here assert that you and we should take your geology class case study in 1998 projections over the documented review of Independant engineers re what occured here? …after the fact with reviews of specifications that were in fact not accuratetly prepared to match even the most basic of soil sample and structural analysis needs?
Ron…get real. We have.
I suggest you take your current geology class on a field trip..start with reading all of the analysis given even on this site with citations to documentation external to the site.
Moreover after you do that go see if you can find the guy recently fired by LSU from the Hurricane Center because alas..
he kept speaking the truth.
Your comment and Chad’s are ongoing reasons among many why the past Administration…the Past Congress and the Present President now playing golf..as well as the Present Congress..playing chicken continue to get away with shoving aside the incompetance and arrogance of the Corps of Engineers and its cronies…its contractors.
They can build those levees higher and stronger. Nature will find a way eventually and we will have another group of people trying to blame the government. The cause was the water, brought by Katrina. No hurricane, No water, no levees needed. Nature will find a way again and again. This is so people can sue the government and win.
I love NOLA, know many that live there. But it is an ultra risky place to live.
Caleb, 43 percent of the American population lives in counties protected by levees.
Any who looked at old photos of of the 17th Street Canal, pre August 2005, could see that:
1) there was no floodgates at the Lake P(interface) end of the canal, and most in New O, knew a surge would come off of Lake P of over 4 feet in heavy wind events, storms tropcial, or cains, rusing down the canals.
New O was a sitting duck, the clock was ticking, had been ticking for some long time. On that, and that was a warning pre 2005, for some time, dire warnings, ignored, why no caring–where it counted ?
So, in a rush in 2006, floodgates were put in( see photos post 2005 on that at far end of 17th Street Canal).
Yet, why were they not there pre 2005 ?
Knowing a thing or two about the USACE, i urge your Org, and readers, all citizens to foucs there for answers. Demand them, full sunshine, etc.
Now, on to the pumps, and the WMI mess etc:
The entity who did the report for the Office of special Counsel(OSC), Apariq, never lists the individuals who made conclusions, and their expertise.(Absent most glaring).
Apariq list a ton of DOD stuff, so, if the claim about not working for the Corps before is kinda true, in small part,(maybe), & since taxpayers should know, what pump companies did it(Apariq) work for, experience etc..?????
Not, sure how many of you read the Apariq so called conclusionary report, one where it outlines that OSC limited who it could speak to, what it could see, and it looked like it had blinders put on it. Staggering.
Now, this is not to discount any search for the full truth(underscore full), any can read about Parsons in Iraq, and some oil meters or lack thereof, critical points in Iraq( see the pieces on stealing oil, rampant corruption) and I urge you to google that
Oil and water don’t mix.
As to Sandy, and
her point, the USACE is mostly civilians( 98 or so %), and not military offices, then
if any attack the USACE they are not attaking the U S Military, that misses the point.
The USACE is a federal agency, don’t we all want the truth, New Orleans is not Iraq, or a green battle zone, we all should want accountability. hopefully, that is the postore of President Obama, in view of the recent letter to him from OSC in D C.
After all was it not a woman civil servant, who had concerns, she was not some 3 Star General.
When water rused down the 17th stret canal in August 2005, it took out levees, that performed no better than sand castles, on a beach in the tidal zone, build by a 3 year old. Yes, Dr Seed was correct, about this tragic disaster.
I know Dr Seeds’ background, and expertise in engineering. Why is that of Apariq like some stealth cloud, so illusive to be absent in the particulars on the matter in question, does that not concern you, since you profess to be looking for the truth.
Sorry, I had to rush for my lunch break, and had a few typos, like “rusing down the canal”, of course the word is “rush”.
So, what about the truth on the floodgates that were not in place on August 2005 ?
At the end of 17th Street Canal(WHERE END OF CANAL MEETS LAKE P…) ?
Also, the P R Director(USACE–HOLDER) claims Corps employees do not leave their citizenship at the front door when they work for the Corps.
Oh, really every hear of the chain of command.
Sandy, was noting that the USACE is filled with civilians.
Who commands those civilians, what about those 3 Star guys in the Pentagon, the Director of Civil Works, etc, & the guys with Stars @ Divison(Chain of command)
So, do the pumps work, not work, etc ?
And, all that stuff on Jeb Bush, is that a smoke-screen as to MWI ?..is it what floating over the WEB by….?
The Office of Special Counsel has a sordid history of ignoring what most federal rank and file civil servants bring to its attention on major concerns. That is a major disaster tragedy of its own.
FEMA did not build the leveees, FEMA did not get billions over the years to move dirt in New Orleans. Talk about fall guys, and scape-goats. This is not to discount the pathetic response of FEMA in Aug-Sept of 2005, but FEMA became a sponge to absorb the blame, which laid with the USACE, and its local sponsors, levee(La) Boards et al.
The Corps knew, when it was building the levees on the side of the 17th Street Canal, the area was boggy, and sandy, and the piling was never driven to its proper depth.(A coverup of staggering scope)
Dr Seed knew that, as did other investigators(post 2005).
What in the hell was wrong with the USACE management(or mismanagemet ) ON THAT ????
That should concern President Obama, as Commander and Chief–and of course every taxpayer in America !
Ron and Chad, you are so wrong. There are countries where the majority of the country is below sea level. Those countries have good flood protection and they don’t flood.
Do you travel over bridges? Do you actually drive a car made of a few thousand pounds of steel hundreds of feet into the air over a ribbon of poured concrete that weighs hundreds or even thousands of tons and not expect it all to collapse to the ground? You do this every time you drive on an overpass and Of course you expect it to stay up! That’s what good engineering does. Plus you expect it to stay up time after time, as long as it is only subjected to conditions within what it was designed for.
Should we not expect the same from our levees? It can be done. It is done elsewhere. If not why would they give us any ratings or assurances of their work as they do. If we are told it is ok to build our lives in an area because we have built for you a certain level of protection, shouldn’t we expect that level of protection?
If you drove a small 3,000 pound car across a bridge that had a sign “This bridge is rated to 10,000 pounds” do you expect it to hold up?
I wonder if we passed a law that exempted out country’s bridge builders from any liability should any of their bridges collapse, what kind of bridges do you think we would have? Better bridges? I don’t think so.
What caliber of bridge builders and engineers do you think that such a law would attract to the bridge building industry? Better engineers? I think not. This is essentially what we have in our current levee builders. I personally feel that the very same law that gave this immunnity to our levee builders also ruined them as quality levee builders. it has certainly ruined our confidence in them.
Caleb, your comments are also factually wrong as well. Go look over those levees, the water is there and the water is higher than the surrounding land EVEN ON DAYS WHEN THERE IS NO HURRICANE! Your statement actually says that if and when there are no hurricanes, then there is no water that is not correct.
the corps of engineers in 2006, june 6 in front of congress Lt. Carl strock stated that walls built by the corps of engineers failed! DESIGN DEFECT… the american society of civil engineer stated it was an “ENGINEERING EVENT ” not a weather event! sheet pilings 17′ feet long were inserted into peat moss and sugar sand the water that came into the canals did NOT overtop the walls it scoured underneath the walls and the walls slid back and broke thus an engineering diaster only second to Chernoble! THE PEOPLE IN NEW ORLEANS WERE KILLED BY THE corps of enginners, our homelessness was caused by the corps of engineers, our families separated by the corps of enginners, and now the corps gives us more lies and junk pumps. Those pumps just like those walls were suppose to work! every tax payer America should be angry because it lied not just to us but to you too.
S. Rosenthal I live not far from a levee myself. But it is not in a situation where it surrounds a city, that is low, in a situation to take on the brunt of a storm surge and rain. There is no need for pumps. And it is tested every year by actually flooding.
Living in the red zone carries risk. Nature will always find a way to overcome what we have built.
It is really ironic, OSC sent a report to the President, by a guy who is attacking Obama’s Health care plans.(all his op-ed in foreign papers, etc)
He put in his report that OSC orderd him to limit his interviews, not to look at things, it was so strange.(Was like some CYA Navy skipper exercise)
Read the limitations put in the OSC report.
It is almost a joke.
Also, other cyber-sites are saying MWI was awarded a $ 26 million USACE contract, so how is this site getting up to $ 450 million to lay all that on MWI ?
What is the La Senator doing in Holland with the EPA Queen, is she going to build a big pump, too ?
The Corps of Engineers stated it was a “design defect” on june 6,2006. Lt.Carl
Strock stated this before congress. These are his words,” We have now concluded we had problems with the design of the structure. We hoped that wasn’t the case,but we recognize it is the REALITY!IN THE CLOSEST THING YET TO A MEA CUPA THE COMMANDER OF THE ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS WEDNESDAY ADMITTED THAT A DESIGN FAILURE” LED TO THE BREACHES OF THE 17 ST CANAL! June 28,2009 Stan Green Jr. Corps employee
” the people of this area experienced unparalleled loss as a consequece of the overwhelming of the levees in St. Bernard Parish and the failure of the FLOODWALLS in New Orleans. They(people in NOLA) turned in anger on the agency(corps) responsible for the design and the construction of those levees and floodwalls.again. Mr. green states Lt. Carl Strock took reaponsibility for the failure of the poject that was intened to protect this area from hurricanes! In the final analysis , Congress directed the corps to construct a project and that project failed to do what it ought to have done! if those walls had never been built in the levees the city would probably have experienced flooding ,but not the MAN MADE catastropic flooding caused by the walls breaking levees. All of this it would have happened anyway,but maybe in a different scenerio: it probaly would have been when the city was asleep and there was a heavy rain event and the canals filled up with water and walls that were already leaking broke while we were sleeping… thousands upon thousands of people would have drowned. in an experiment the corps filled the London ave. canal with water and at 5 feet walls start to crack. I talked with a man who lived by the 17th st. canal and he was glad we evacuated because sooner or latter those walls were going to come crumbling down due to a “DESIGN DEFECT” My grandmother’s home on delacroix island existed from the 1800,s thought all of the storms and now because our oast line is gonethe old house is gone. The MRGO built by the coprs have destroyed over 25,000 acres of our coast line. If Holland, 25 ft. below sea level, can protect their homeland can’t the corps rebuild what they have destoyed to protect our home land or is Mr. Graves right” they can’t be trusted! After reading the confessions of the corps leader and its empoyee I think the answer is clear especially when this latest news about the pumps come into play.
Why was there no floodgates in place at the end of 17th street Canal, where it intefaces with Lake Ponch.., and in place fully operational in August 2005, can some one tell us that ?
And that would have requried a pumping system in place too, as a full plan, but why was it missing–too, in 2005 ?
And, can any cite the cost for the floodgates put in on the 17th Street Canal ?
Sadly, pre 2005, so much was glossed over.
And, Silva states it right on..(above)
See this:
http://www.neworleanscitybusiness.com/viewStory.cfm?recID=18277
Notes:
Weston Solutions Inc. of West Chester, Pa., will be paid $84.9 million to construct 19 pump platforms on the 17th Street and London Avenue canals. MR Pittman of Harahan was awarded a $52.5-million contract to provide the pumps, including 11 for the 17th Street Canal.
…………….
Boh Brothers Construction Co. of New Orleans built interim floodgates and pumps on the 17th Street Canal for $27.8 million and MR Pittman rounded out the top five with its $25-million contract for work on the London Avenue Canal. ”
The floodgates did not cost $ 5 billion, so why were they not in place on August of 2005 ?
SAD… the degree of playing with people’s lives by some in HIGH PLACES….!
Just crass recklessness
Roy,
There was not water there of extraordinary height, wave action,surge or pressure from those things. White puffy clouds and a breeze are not going to recreate those conditions. It takes all that happened during Katrina to contribute. And I am not saying that the levees were not of shotty quality. But what I am saying, instead of looking for a scapegoat that will only cost the taxpayers money, except the high risk, build accordingly and with every hurricane expect that this will happen.
There are no guarantees in life. Extraordinary events come with the expectations of extraordinary happenings. We must be prepared to deal with the consequences of where we live.
And yes, I expect for bridges to be safe during normal times. But their may be a time when it may not be safe because of the circumstances. Just like my house may not be safe with a tornado a few feet from the roof.
Caleb:
expecting all to fail on Winds over
80 mph, when it is designed, & built
by the Corps, do you really think that is acceptable
and just how cheap a value do you
accord life in New Orleans ?
Lake Orleans could have all been avoided
in 2005, if some cared, but they fell below
a standard of true caring.
that is flat out wrong.
Barney, people did not value their own lives there. They should have gotten out when Katrina was on its way. On the Thursday and Friday before it hit, our family was doing the final check of generators, food, water and other items needed that we were prepared for. People did not plan well for Katrina. If they lost their life because they stayed behind, it was not the corps fault. It was theirs.
The corp should have done what was mandated. However there are no guarantees in life. You play the game during the hurricane, you pay the price. They were only warned about Katrina for 40 years.
Four years later Barak Obama is still calling what happened here..a NATURAL DISASTER…DID SO IN THE INTERVIEW WITH THE TIMES PICAYUNE JUST A FEW DAYS AGO..
If he continues to do so…my question is
WHY?
You are correct on one thing, Caleb, pumps were invented well before 2005, and so were floodgates, and the warnings had gone on since at least the early 1980’s, and so many knew New Orleans was a sitting duck, if no floodgates, and then August 28, 2005 happened, and a City was made a lake, in a flash.
Then, floodgates were put in, and pumps over those floodgates.(after 2005), after a mass of death and destruction.
I appreciate there was a devaluation of live in New Orleans, but it was by those in power, and those who did not give a damn or care pre 2005
And, Patty Whalen is correct too, Obama is out to lunch if he keeps referring to New Orleans as a natural disaster, if he just ignores the situation on no floodgates in place on 2005, and the reason that happened.
That would compound the tragedy.
New Orleans could have avoided being turned into a Lake in August of 2005, but there was a lack of caring.
I hope some can get people to care.
We all could use a lot less apathy in the nation.
Time waits for nobody, life is precious
, and each life lost because New Orleans was turned into an instant lake, was a life cut short, because some did not care, and that saddens so many of us, even today.
And we vow to do something so it does not happen again, soemwhere in out Nation.
Caleb, I am glad you are still her, help America to be a better place, please !
Some of USACE actions will likely be discussed in the upcoming FEMA Toxic Trailer trials beginning this month in NOLA. The trailer manufacturers are claming that the method used to block, strap and level the travel trailers caused damage to the trailers. Travel Trailers were not designed to be placed on blocks so this action caused the exterior to skin/seams to move, buckle and leak. The trailer industry uses construction materials such as OSB, particle board, and plywood that contain cheap water based formaldehyde glues. It is believed that when water/moisture is allowed to contact and be absorbed into these “engineered wood products” a reaction occurs that triggers the release of the dangers of formaldehyde on unsuspecting occupant victims. This moist condition also provides a perfect environment for mold colonization. USACE provided the specifications and procedures for FEMA trailer installations.
I once worked on public works project with a USACE Major. The Major’s comment about the Corps has always stuck with me. “Engineers don’t have enough common sense to pour pee out of a boot, even if the instructions were on the heel”. It appears the Corp may have long history of not using common sense as a method of dealing with excessive water. That was also my opinion when days after Katrina, I observed that the MRGO/Industrial Canal Container facility’s flood gates were still in the same position that were captured in images days before Katrina. Where the gates left open or did the flood move them to the same partially opened/closed position?
Government appears to remain in damage control mode by protecting itself first rather than its victims. Little has been done to address the health issues that will long remain with survivors/victims. GOA reports demonstrate that disaster recovery is big business for Government agencies and their cronies. The Government’s profit over people policies must stop. I see little evidence that that CHANGE has begun.
Where is the USACE coming up with SPECS to cause MOLD in trailers(sold by pvt companies), or for engines that are junk, or pumps that are crap.
Then, there is the inspection arm of the USACE in Construction Operations, if the stuff in the field(out on the engineering branch) does not work, change orderss are issued, a mode to change the SPECs, to lessen the requiremnts, so the CRAP can be paid for, to shove $$$ out the door.
The more the USACE screws up, the more money Congress doles out to it.
It goes beyond pouring pee out of a jack boot.
Most civilians– rank and file workers– who raise questions about all the crappy things that go on in the USACE, risk a career ending move if any raise questions.
People are taught to shut up, and be quite in the USACE.
A USACE employee with 2 kids, house payments and car payments is on the edge of living pay check to pay check,
Do they like all the crap they see going on.
Most don’t, but a climate of fear prevades the USACE.
See the Halliburton model, and the way the USACE is a tool of political big WIGS.
The Corps is filled with civilians, under the CHAIN of Pentagon command.
Any want to get into the RING Knocker culture, that might piss off some here.
But, Jese in some respects hit the nail on the head.
Who puhsed the SPECs in the trailer deal, Jesse, seeing the USACE as a Sucker for someone cutting a fat hog ?
Did you leave out that part.
There is another norm in the USACE, which is well stated.
SHIT runs down hill, meaning the Upper Chain of command, jerks the lower chain, and when an order is given by a Major to pour piss out of boot, he better do it, even if he is a PH’D in engineering.
Even if a major is a total moron, he can give orders, and he can tag engineers as mere piss ants.
Thanks for clarfying the pecking order at USACE, Jesse.
by the way, one can be a Deputy commander at an Engineering District as a major.
interesting, the Major pouring shit all over his men in the field, as told by Jesse.
Indeed, more telling in more ways than one.
Tell it like it is Jesse,
this seems to be a place, for sunshine.
Why, not after the stuff that happened on the levees, and sand on 17th Street –floodwalls, so called.
On a USACE levee job(silt blanket), the USACE delted work, because the Contractor would have to incur costs to do the rest of the job, and saving the contractor lots of money was the big thing in Construction Operations, in bed with shady contractors.
Funny, how that contractor got sued by the DOJ for fraud, as a crook, but why split hairs when a lot of piss can be poured out of boots, by Major Alphonso
THE USACE has many good people, civilians, but it does get some Majors who are total morons, once and a while, and they can wreck havoc on an outfit.
ya, major Gary with the USACE, how can any ever forget him, and the job at….
Will leave out the particulars.
At first some blamed FEMA, and thought it built the levees, now is this a payback on the trailers.
The USACE is not exactly a trailer Manufacturer.
Amazing what comes out on stuff, and Majors, and their boots.
Jesse:
How deep in are you on this Jesse, Good luck
Interesting piece that notes you:
http://794.129.163.432/search?q=cache:KI884ISn7R4J:208.62.60.4/40/article_1430.shtml+Jesse+Fineran+FEMA+trailers&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&ie=UTF-8
But Jesse Fineran, a former Hancock County Emergency Operations Center hazardous material specialist, said he brought the issue to the attention of numerous federal agencies in the daily meetings Hancock County EOC with government representatives nearly two years ago.
The data was provided to Bechtel, the contractor responsible for transporting and setup of trailers. Fineran said both Sid Melton, now chief of operations in Mississippi, and Michael Andrews, chief of mobile home operations in Mississippi, received the OSHA report in December 2005.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>…
Fineran said the issues and the way FEMA has dealt with them will be more difficult to recover from than the hurricane. Fineran calls the multiple mistakes made by the agency “Hurricane FEMA.”
“To me, the effect of what FEMA has done is taking longer than recovery from the storm,” Fineran said. ”
I gather you never worked for the USACE, or were a Major.
Brownie— LIL Ol brownie the FEMA director, he never disigned any SPECS on anything Earthly, at all
I wish you well Jesse, what happnened in New Orleans in 2005, is still reaping a whirl wind in people’s lives.
Speaking of fishy SPECs and USACE gravey trains, this from a 2007 News piece:
“When the Army Corps of Engineers solicited bids for drainage pumps for New Orleans, it copied the specifications — typos and all — from the catalog of the manufacturer that ultimately won the $32 million contract, a review of documents by The Associated Press found.
[…]
In a letter dated April 13, Sen. David Vitter, R-La., called on the Corps to look into how the politically connected company got the post-Hurricane Katrina contract. MWI employed former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, President Bush’s brother, to market its pumps during the 1980s, and top MWI officials have been major contributors to the Republican Party.”
http://vidiotspeak.blogspot.com/2007/05/us-army-corruption-of-engineers-or.html
Some brought up USACE Specs.
The lawsuit against MWI in federal court is still on-going)August 2009), that is the fraud suit, on the Nigerian bribes, and linked, to loans of many millions that some alleged were falsely certified.
FEMA must have issued the trailer procurment–not the USACE, but Jesse must know more, as he is hot on the trail of……..(what—Jesse) ??
Jesse:
While you cite some Major(see above–and the boot story), and bash the engineers at the USACE(using some army Officer story, it must be easy to target some unknown G S 12 civil (civilian) engineer.
However, did you look at this Jesse, given your passion for the truth:
“Fluor
In the weeks and months following the storm, (FEMA) doled out lucrative, no-bid contracts to politically connected companies. Texas-based Fluor Corp., one of the largest procurement and construction companies in the world, was one of four companies awarded contracts worth $400 million each to provide the ubiquitous “FEMA trailers” to homeless residents.(52) The Fluor Political Action Committee donated more than $500,000 in the 2006 election cycle; when it gave directly to U.S. Congressional candidates, 74 percent of its campaign contributions went to Republicans.(53)
”
FROM
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=14651
and:
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=13547
And, Jesse,
here is a piece reporting the Corps role in the FEMA trailer matter:
http://74.198.183.632/search?q=cache:Bopmj5KfE9UJ:www.mvm.usace.army.mil/rfo/features/trailers.htm+FEMA+trailers+Army+Corps+SPECS&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&ie=UTF-8
Maybe the G S 12’s etc at the Corps did leave their citizenship at the USACE door, to get the bread to pay the mortgage.
FLUOR is connected in the chemial area, and power and influence, or is it, as was Betchel.
The DOJ represents the Corps, EPA, and
FEMA went it is sued in Federal Court, you
must know that, Jesse.
Dr Seed in his 42 page letter noted federal
prosecutors. He is an civil engineer, are you
implying he has no common sense, reflected
in his 42 page letter, one he told the
upper crust of ASCE he feared his letter might
find it’s way into hands less trustworthy.
Tell us more on the Major, is it in the
name of sunshine, something Dr Seed alluded
to, but did he really mean that ?
Why not tell it like it is Jesse, and the Major
with the USACE is — his name ?
Sunshine, be it earthy, why not please,
we have not a thing against common sense.
Sunshine is that– common sense.
How could any be against you acting in
sunshine to tell us the name of the major.
Your name is all over the papers on the matter,
as you must know.
A 9/ 28 Hearing needs all names of who got public monies
and all the where, why’s, when. Whose. Etc. So far glossed over.
It would be unatural not to have accountable in the matters.
We owe that to the over 1,600 beloved citizens who perished,
we must not stop until every last stone is turned over to get to
the bottom of matters
To much time has been wasted, Congress needs
to hold hearins in
the fall of 2009
call for that please.
Sandy, is health care, the bills on
that. taking all the oxygen out of
the rooms in Congress, so that
the man- made disaster in New Orleans is
not a top priority after labor day, 2009. ?
Sadly, that could happen.
It would only compound the tragedy.
Fears abound that could happen.
Dear Barney;
This was a referenced to a comment over 30 years ago, in another parish and was reflective to contractors attempting to construct a project with an approved plan. If constructed as designed, drainage would be required water to flow uphill without pumps. Maybe the quote should have read SOME Engineers. From your carefully worded multi-post, it seems that I may have offended you; that was not my intend.
After experiencing active hostile environments within some government agencies; an atmosphere clearly designed to use fear to control employees from whistleblowing, I clearly understand why some would want the name of a common sense Major. I assure you this identity has nothing to do with today’s USACE recovery business that now provides millions in opportunities for employees, families and cronies. How much did GOA say was spent in Katrina debris contracts. Having “Close flood gates before strom surge” printed on the unsecure and/or non-existing structures may be considered common sense to some non-engineers. Maybe you can respond to my question. Where the flood gates left open at the container facility on the NOLA side of Industrial Canal?
BTY, is Barney your real name?
cordially
Jesse
I once filed a report prepared by
H Bolton Seed, Dr Ray Seed’s father, in
federal court in Ca.
The case was on a Sierra Club funded
Org seeking to stop a USACE dam, up
in Sonoma.
Dr H Bolton Seed had been retained
by the USACE.
The court was most impressed with his
report
Awed might be a better word.
I can’t speak for Barney, or any others.
However, Jesse, the industrial canal was not a flood control canal, and are you suggesting the USACE/ N. O was a tool of the oil industry for a short cut out to the Gulf.
Also, as to the floodgate on some NOLA side near some short cut canal, who was operating the gates(fllodgates), any, how do you know it was an engineer in charge ?
As to floodgates at the 17th Street Canal in August 2005, there were none.
As to the Corps and its Divisions, Branchs, sections, often there is conflict in the Corps, itself, between the Engineering branch, and the Construction -Ops branch, word has it out in the Field areas.
I suppose it would be common sense that water flows down hill.
But on August of 2005, water was flowing in from the Lake surge, a massive force, head of power, and it was flowing out from the canal drainage, so water was flowing in one hell of a swirling fury.
I am not offended by your remarks, Jesse, tell it like it is, if any others were, they should not be, you have a right to your opinion/ views.
I use a screen-name, my real name is not Norm.
I suppose I could have used the S-Name Stormin Norman. I did not use the S-name Stevo, that must have been taken by one in the planning branch of USACE, N O.
As to my real name, I am not in the news, not
a crane operator, so i am just giving my 2 cents, as an American taxpayer.
I belive I earned that right.
I assume you real name is
Jesse F, and you are the one noted in the FEMA trailer mess, so many pieces filling news articles.
Hope all goes well for you,
and it works out ok down the road.
Jesse:
You are not the only one in the news:
How about this, (FROM AP)
“Critics say the probes, commissioned and funded by federal agencies, were more about covering up human and agency misdeeds than determining what went wrong with the failed structures.
Last month, the society’s Task Force on Engineering Reviews said Reston, Va.-based ASCE should draw up an ethics policy to eliminate questions of possible conflicts of interest.
The panel started work after Raymond Seed, a levee expert with the University of California-Berkeley, sent a 42-page letter to ASCE in October 2007 accusing it of colluding with the Army Corps of Engineers to cover up engineering flaws found after Katrina struck in August 2005. Seed was on an independent levee investigation team funded by the National Science Foundation.
Seed’s team said corps and ASCE reports placed too much blame on the power of Katrina and did not spend enough time studying design flaws. The independent team also complained that the Army Corps and ASCE team obstructed access to data and tried to keep them away from the site of one of the major levee failures.
The letter also revived accusations that ASCE’s examination of the World Trade Center collapse was flawed. Critics have charged the group wrongly concluded the skyscrapers could not have been designed to withstand aircraft strikes.
Source:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008288505_apembattledengineers.html
In August of 2005, wind determined the flow paramaters of water in from the Lake.
Wind caused the surge of waters to lift off the normal lake level some significant number of feet.
It is a bit more complex than a drainage canal in the Delta.
It is ironic, Seed(Ray) wrote a memorial piece for his dad that noted his dad received more awards from the ASCE than any member in its history.
If you have a beef with enginers, hay, no skin off my nose, we know that engineers can’t walk on water, at least if it is not frozen.
And, in August in New Orleans water is not frozen.
Jesse et al:
The New Republic did a piece on the US-COE, and its political hustlers, and notes the Industrial Canal
SEE;
http://84.395.93.562/search?q=cache:o7BLuhhTYbkJ:www.tnr.com/article/new-orleans/progmation+industrial+canal+new+orleans+short+cut+oil&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&ie=UTF-8
The US-COE works in a climate of hustlers, hucksters, and those who store hard cold cash in their freezer, some of those Craw Daddy Gulf Congressmen, and King Fisher Senators who lord if over the FOLKS.
But, any mention, then the local News( hype-club) paper will point to some COE contract specialists in Afgan, who accepted bribes to stir deals to her SIS.
And, a contract specialist is not even an engineer, most likley, as is the same with a floodgate operator.
Ya, Jesse, it is a damn mess.
Funny you noted whistleblowers, and names.
Aren’t those branded as RATS in the Command
columns, but you spokeup, like no big secret.( The Major, and his Stripes)
The more people(Congress/ L-Org etc) hear from citizens the better for America.
Most curious, you mentioned the Industrial Canal, as millions around the world watched in 2005, utterly shocked at what was going on, who before never knew anything about it.
They are learning more, even now 2009, and are just as shocked.
Norm, thx for links. Could not open CE pages. In Mississippi Bechtel was preferred contractor for FEMA and USACE trailer related contracts. I am aware that Fluors did construct two parks in Hancock county. Trailer related litigation can be tracked on US District Court, Eastern District site.
http://www.laed.uscourts.gov/FEMA07md1873/FEMAtrailer.htm
It was my understanding that FEMA requested USACE to provide Spec for blocking and strapping of travel because FEMA legal was concerned that unsecured units were a FEMAs legal exposure with RITA in the Gulf.
What I am referring is a wall type structure with several sliding gates or walls that run between the IC and the container facility. I was reviewing some Mid Sept. 2005 fly over photos showing that these movable devices in the same location can be seen in did pre-Katrina satellite images. After 4 years, I can’t seem to find anyone interested in these photos and/or willing /able to provide a answer this question. I am simply interested in the truth and find the CE inspired explanations a bit difficult to accept.
Thanks, Jesse:
You notice whenever any sue FEMA, or the COE, the DOJ files enldess motions to get rid of the suits, often so soom poor harmed person never ges his day in Court.
That seems to be what is happening in the matter you referenced.
THE DOJ will motion the matter to death.
I am not disputing what you say, the COE is good a burying things in its many obfuscations, but the DOJ is even better at filing motions to stop most citizens from even getting their day in court–on the merits of the matters where they have been harmed.
However, Judge Duvall may not fall for all the DOJ running interference for the COE–these time on some things.
If you have material info, bring it out, if you are a witness stand up, if you know something you feel you have a civic duty to shine sunshine on, let it come out.
Don’t let any scare you off Jess, step up to the plate, raise your right hand, and tell it like it is(in a forum that counts), if it helps some citizen.
You know more on the trailer matters than most, GOOD LUCK
You might find
http://www.toxictrailer.com
interesting.
I ran toxic trailers through google, and this really struck me:
Quote from the SITE:
“One thing the really bothers me(THE WWW SITE AUTHOR) about the recent Inspector General report criticizing FEMA for failing to respond to the problems with formaldehyde in FEMA housing is that names of the people who covered up and delayed for FEMA were not named and are not being required to take responsibility for their actions. Names aren’t used (like the name of the person in FEMA who received results of Sierra Club tests showing high formaldehyde levels two years before FEMA took action), only titles. No one who is responsible for Brittany’s illness and the illnesses and deaths of many others has so much has had a hand slapped. Meanwhile, families struggle with medical bills and the anguish of lives cut short.”
source:
http://www.toxictrailers.org/
Notice the names of the ones involved from the Corps who botched things so badly are never named, it is the Gov, or the USACE.
But the ASCE is real good at never naming names, they are too busy scratching backs.
What were the names of people in the USACE Engineering branch(ETC), are they nameless..
Sad, so many died, and Congress has no clue of what the names are of the USACE people… who >>>>>>>
FILL in the blanks….
Your point is not missed by some, Jesse…
Becky Gillette & Sierra Club’s effort brought this issue to attention of congressional investigative committees. Becky is also responsible for http://www.toxictrailers.com. It is the general consensus of the FEMA victims that the OIG report was a softball attempt to demonstrate that FEMA did something wrong without coming close to opening any door providing accountability in Recovery agencies. FEMA and CDC behavior will likely have long term heath effects on many that stayed in trailers for long periods. The congressional investigations produced emails between the players in FEMA, the committees e-published the emails. This pointed to more evidence that FEMA, OSHA, EPA and CDC obscured the dangers of formaldehyde from the survivors occupants. These survivors have become victims of agency CYA policies. It is an inter fact that FEMA refers to disaster survivors as victims. February 2008 CDC was required to come clean about the IAQ danger in trailers because of a CDC whistleblower. The OIG report does appear to show that OSHA/FEMA was aware of problem before FEMA claims they were aware of any IAQ issues. FEMA knew the occupants were suffering and did nothing but protect itself.
The Sierra Club did not sue the Corps in
any FEMA trailer matter, apparently,
but it or ( it’s proxies) has sued the Corps in
cases in which
Dr Seed filed materials for the Corps, that
is Ray Seed’s father.
The Sewer Districts were responsible
for intercity canals, but maybe the La
Senators can get the U S taxpayers to
foot so many tabs, now that the Corps
rubber stamped so many PE’s drawings/ plans
in La who did the actual design work
that was not up to par.
Why would any in La want
that disclosed, when Corp of Engineer
rubber stamps are so easy to get in La….?
At least, no evidence supports the
claim the Corps designed FEMA
supplied trailers.
The names covered up are private engineers
who got design jobs, and got federal
monies.
The Corps knows that, too.
Some of you are just so heartless. Why doesn’t everyone stop pointing fingers and work together to make this area a better place to live? Please see our story posted at http://katrinasos.wordpress.com/.
Stupid arguments on in favor of New Orleans. Its obvious that New Orleans is a horrible place and does not need to exist. Sure 40% of the country may or may not be protected by levies. I do not care. What is obvious is that US taxpayers should not pay for New Orleans to be rebuilt. Texas is much better anyway! Stay there!